Darmstadt Seminar Files
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Thank you for uploading!
Thanks Simon for uploading the files! I also have a question: can someone apply for a DFG grant in English or grants should only be written in German? Many thanks in advance!
Hi,
One can apply for a DFG grant in English, but not all parts of an application can be in English, you should ask the person responsible for your area of research at the DFG for more information. The following parts must always also be written in German: Thema, summary and money applied for. On the DFG website this text can be found (in German):
Die Angaben über das Forschungsvorhaben können auch in englischer Sprache erfolgen. Ob und in welchem Umfang sonstige Teile des Antrags ebenfalls in englischer Sprache verfasst sein können, ist fachspezifisch verschieden. Bitte klären Sie dies mit dem für Sie zuständigen Fachbereich. Sollten Sie Ihren Antrag vollständig in englischer Sprache verfassen, müssen jedoch die Angaben zu folgenden Punkten zusätzlich auch in deutscher Sprache beigefügt werden: „Thema“, „Zusammenfassung“ und „Beantragte Mittel“.
Under this link: http://www.dfg.eu/foerderung/faq/eigene_stelle_faq/index.html
Good luck writing!
Johan
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I recall having read somewhere that:
1. a person who applies for a DFG "Finanzierung der eigenen Stelle" should have researched in Germany at least 3 years immediately before, otherwise recommendations from German professors are needed additionally. I noted this because I researched more than 4 years in Germany but this was longer ago, and, if I'd go there with Humbold, I could not apply for DFG afterwards since Humbold is 2 years.
2. a person who applies for DFG shall show that (s)he wants to further research in Germany also after the grant is over. Of course most of the people want this, but how do they prove?
3. I recall that with a German diploma a doctorate is not needed, one can apply for "Finanzierung der eigenen Stelle", which is the case of funding for most doctorates in Germany, but, if one is a foreigner, one needs to have a doctorate. Myself I applied in 2011 in Stuttgart without having a doctorate, but I had a German diploma - the professor told that I need a doctorate, but, in 2013 the same position (which remained unoccupied, obviously they found nobody better) was advertised without need for doctorate (and still is unoccupied till today). In 2013 I had a doctorate, but the professor said it is not on the topic I started in Germany.
kind regards
Maria
Hi Maria,
All points you mention I could not find in the DFG manuals, also I have never heard anyone from the DFG mention any such rules, they are also not included in the FAQ.
Rule 1 sounds very strange since applying for own funding can be a good way to attract highly qualified foreign researchers to Germany, applying such restrictions makes it all the more harder to keep good researchers and find new ones, also most Universitys require you to have gained foreign research experience. Gaining this experience woud however severely limit your options to come back to Germany, in other words having such a rule the DFG would effectively chase good researchers away. Off course the DFG is not a governement organisation, but it is definetly an organisation that wants to do all they can to improve the German research.
Rule 2 is something they off course want very much, just not something they can require of you since it will limit your options and the EU is a big fan of mobility. The EU would also not like to see an organisation like the DFG (or any organisation or employer for that matter) pose restrictions on what people can do after their funding by the organisation stops.
Rule 3 can not be in accordance with Eurpean law since it discriminates against non Germans, they could have rules such as if you graduate from a University with a score better then X or from Universities ranked place 1 to X, since these rules are not discriminating, but I am not aware of any of those. What can happen is that a Professor applies for permission to hire someone without a doctorate to be able to fill the position. The FAQ however states that one can only apply for their own money after they have their doctorate (it does not mention anything about special rules for certain groups of people).
Best regards,
Johan
Hi Johan,
regarding rule 1 I have found it pretty quickly, I am looking for the rest since I am pretty sure I have not dreamed them ;)
Antragstellung aus dem Ausland oder bei nicht vorhandenem Anschluss an das deutsche Wissenschaftssystem: Falls Sie sich zur Zeit der Antragstellung im Ausland befinden oder sich im deutschen Wissenschaftssystem weniger als drei Jahre aufhalten, müssen Sie die Stellungnahme eines Wissenschaftlers oder einer Wissenschaftlerin der Sie aufnehmenden Institution zu Ihrer Person und zum wissenschaftlichen Vorhaben beifügen.
at http://www.dfg.de/formulare/52_02/52_02_de.pdf
I found rule nr. 2 as well
Sie erklären ebenso, Ihre weitere wissenschaftliche Karriere nach der Förderung in Deutschland fortsetzen zu wollen.
(Forschungsstipendien)
http://www.dfg.de/formulare/1_04/1_04_de.pdf
I recall it pretty clearly since I was wondering if this will make me get a visa for further remaining in Germany after my DFG (doctorate) scholarship run out. In fact, it was exactly the contrary ;)
I am pretty sure I saw the 3rd as well, but not sure if at the DFG or at the Uni Stuttgart. It is not a discrimination of Germans and not Germans since also a not German (like myself) can have a German diploma.
kind regards
Maria
Hi Maria,
Okay, it is a formal declaration, not binding though, I still find it strange though that they limit their good researchers in this way, if you are a German, first doing a doctorate, then a post doc in Germany (eigene stelle from the DFG) they would want to keep you in Germany while to further your career you would need to go abroad.
Oh well as long as it is just a statement without legal consequences it is fine, unless of course like you you wanted to get a visa based on it, then the legal consequence would have been helpfull.
Best regards,
Johan
Hi Maria,
It seems your right about number 1, though not a recommendation is needed just a written letter from your new boss / supervisor that you know how the German academic system works. Which comes down to a formal writing that you are a nice person who knows its way around in the German academic world (much less serious then a formal recommendation). Off course your host institution always gives you this letter since they want the DFG money.
Good to point out though to everyone that there are extra rules. I guess that is why everyone says start writing in time and plan more time as needed.
Actually the two are even together, because for this type of funding one has to be "integrated in the German science system" (ie being there since at least 3 years, you can find this rule also in the PDF of my previous message) and say that afterwards wants to be active in Germany
"Antragsberechtigt ist, wer in das deutsche Wissenschaftssystem integriert ist und erklärt, zukünftig im Inland wissenschaftlich tätig sein zu wollen"
And it says indeed that it is for foreigners too "PostDoc Stipendium kurz nach der Promotion (auch für Ausländer!)"
https://www.uni-due.de/imperia/md/content/ssc/fofoer/dfg_vortrag_hvh_update_2013.pdf
I am wondering, because almost I loose my right to Humbold because those who have a German diploma and a German doctorate count as Bildungsinländer (even if they lived abroad regardless how many years) and cannot thus have a Humbold in Germany only abroad - but I wasn't awarded the German doctorate. Who knows, maybe once ...
kind regards
Maria
OK, I don't find rule 3, maybe it was at the Uni Stuttgart. But a quick check at any university webpage (Karlsruhe, Stuttgart etc) will reveal that the employees do not have a doctorate. Actually I know somebody who was not employed for being overqualified. And my colleagues in Karlsruhe had "eigene Stelle" while doing there doctorate.
Hi Maria,
I guess for rule 3, there is an option to get an eigene stelle as PhD student, the trick is to have someone else (like a prof you know very well) apply for you, with just one position, in essence you will write everything, he just hands it in. This off course only works if you are on very good terms with your professor.
The rule would be discriminating in the sence that the DFG would say German degrees are better then any other, therefore people who obtained a degree from another country will first have to do a PhD while people with a German degree can skip this step. You can make such rules, but you will have to argument them and the argument that it was handed out by a German school won't hold up.
Hi Johan,
yes, I think that the one to be employed wrote the project and the prof. or a dr. at the institute submitted it, then the guy applied and was employed. Actually at the institute where I was even when an employee was leaving for a next job wrote a project for his successor.
Uni Stuttgart I cannot find that paragraph anymore (it was 2011) but there is a difference indeed between German degrees and foreign degrees when admitted to doctorate, which you can read most extensively here http://www.gradus.uni-stuttgart.de/promotion/zulassung/#2.1 (also present on other pages "Uni und Familie" for example).
In any case, I must tell that having your degree being recognised for doctorate is the easier part, more difficult is getting it recognised for profession. For example a friend of mine got married and because her degree was not recognised by I do not know what office in the birth certificate of his children (she married a German) it appears that she is no university graduate, only her husband has a diploma. And she was Doktorand. Another friend of mine got her degree recognised by that office (there was also a time limit how long one can apply after immigration for that recognition), but to sign as arh. (Ion Mincu University, Romania) and never as Arch. which is the correct German spelling.
kind regards
Maria
Hi Maria,
That would indeed be the trick, it off course only works if your on very good terms with the Prof. so I guess not something any foreigner can do (unless they alreaddy studied in Germany, but since we are here on a MCAA forum that is something irrelevant here).
The acceptance of the degree is indeed different, the University wants to make sure that the degree is at least equivelant to a German degree, I had no Problem getting my Dutch degree recognized by the University in Mainz. The MHH in Hannover was a different story, they would have made me take extra courses (even at bachelors level), because my degree did not live up to their standards, after the EU office of the MHH intervened it was no longer necessary, but I definetly agree with you there that different Universities make very different rules.
Doktorand is the old term for what is now Master of science / Master of Arts / Master of .... but I guess the German institutes can be very picky on recognition, especially if it is from non EU or former eastern European countries. It is my opinion that they should be less picky on the other hand there are degrees out there that realy dont mean anything (except for that you paid x Euro to get the paper). The best would be if the EU would standardise it, that would also get rid of such problems that you describe and increase mobility.
Best regards,
Johan
Doktorand is PhD candidate. In Romania, too, only written Doctorand.
I also know of Chinese and Latin American guys who needed to do an Aufbaustudium to be allowed to enroll for doctorate, but my colleague was enrolled, for that her degree was enough, but not for working in industry, and obviously for recognising the degree on the birth certificate of the children the industry recognition was necessary ;)
Hi Johan,
I found the info about recognition of university degrees in Germany apart of for admission for doctorate. Take a look at
http://anabin.kmk.org/
I differentiates in 4 categories, among which "if the university degree from abroad allows for doing the work associated with the degree in Germany" and "if the university title from abroad may be used in Germany". This is issue with the title is somehow so: I have a German Dipl.-Ing. title in architecture. In Romania it is recognised to be equivalent to arhitect, which means in Romania I can sign with arh. But in Germany I am not allowed to sign Arch. as in this case I would be sued, in Germany Arch. is not a university title, but a professional title given by the architects' chamber and supposes 2 years of practice. Probably similar things happen to different foreign titles.
For example, I am doing now a pedagogy course, and I see this is recognised as ZEA (Zusatz-, Ergänzungs- und Aufbaustudien). But the doctorate in architecture from Romania is not recognised ... although I was told that since it is Bologna, it is European.
kind regards
Maria
Hi all,
I was just thinking after my discussion with Maria, would it not be good if for a next time the DFG would come by and talk about such issues instead of a standard talk about what sort of funding they provide, for sure that is interesting but it can be found anywhere.
Apparently there are extra rules for foreigners who would like to apply to the DFG, that would for a number of us be of great interest I guess, who agrees?
Best regards,
Johan
I added the talk of Prof. Andjelic to those already added by Simon last week.
Many thanks to Sisay Adugna Chala for providing the check lists for making a tax declaration.
I added the talk of Prof. Andjelic to those already added by Simon last week.
Many thanks to Sisay Adugna Chala for providing the check lists for making a tax declaration.
Thanks for uploading the files and for the interesting and helpful seminar in Darmstadt. It was great to meet you all there!
Thanks for uploading!